Merlin = Ti Yo Eddy

[schneidw]

Hello All,

I recently read a quote from Gary Helfrich that "the Merlin is essentially a Ti Yo Eddy"; therefore I am comfortable asking this question on FatCogs; I just bought a used Merlin to replace my too small Yo Eddy. It came with a Rock Shox SID w no shock pump. Looks like it uses some needle pump or somethign. Anyways, the fork is in great shape other than needing air although it seems flimsy for my riding style. Does anybody know what year this shock might be (98??) and if I can still buy a pump for the shock? Also, am I better off rebuildign the shock with an Eglund cartridge system that hopefully utilizes the same shock pump as my Fox? PLEASE HELP!!!

[kokies]

Looks like a 98. Has the nicer stanches they used on the early sid races.

on the pump, you can do 2 things, buy the adapter , http://cgi.ebay.com/Rock-Shox-SID-pu...QQcmdZViewItem

or convert them to schrader, i think they work even thought they say 00-03
http://www.bikemannetwork.com/biking/p/FK4235, just unscrew the existing and screw in the new ones.

Personal the conversion is the way to go.

[AB]

Looks like a nice bike. Good luck.

[schneidw]

Thank you Kokie; I appreciate your technical insights... The conversion does seem to be the ultimate solution.. thanks for the idea and source link; very cool! Another stupid question.. sorry I am not a technical person...Do I need 2 of the conversion units.. I found a website that mentions the SID has both a positive and negative chamber, one unit in each leg;

Also, a came accross Total Air replacement cartridges by Eglund that replace all teh shock internals and convert the shock to Shrader too.. Any thoughts on these units? Waste of money??


Thanks AB: The bike is the only suitable replacement for a Yo Eddy IMHO.. I do truelly wonder how close in terms of geometry etc this particular Merlin is to my Yo Eddy.. The current layout is not ideal for me (eg riser bars etc) that I can't get a good feel on comparing the 2 bikes in terms of handling, climbing etc.. still alot of work to do

[AB]

That's the tough part. Bike/frame geometries are so subtly different from the various builders (all claiming theirs to be the best of course) that it's nearly impossible to become familiar with them all. So blind faith comes into play most of the time and that can be frustrating or surprising, but usually expensive.

[Bssc]

You have to remember Gary is a bit on the grouchy side when it come to those two names. The merlin has a completely differing geometry to a Yo as the material it self dictates this. Being next door to each other of course for prototypes Merlin used Fat's geometries as a base to start with.


Now for the forks the needle is easily available at the LBS as is a basic pump. If you are going to convert avoid the Schrader type valving as it is not the best for high pressure.

[kokies]

Yes, I think you need both sides, call bikeman and see if that is for a pair, it looks like it is.

[scant]

Litespeed did similiar to this as well. Cambria bike used to advertise a litespeed fat bastard. Which was essentially a litespeed built to FAT geometry (I asked cambriabike when they first advertised it )

where did you read the gary quote? I'd be curious to see the article scan it in if you can?

[Yo Eddy!]

Scant,

It could very well be schneidw means the 'Bike' article Christian (cdeger) posted on MTBR some time ago:


Schwinn
Breezer
Cunningham
Stumpjumper
Fat City & Merlin
Bontrager
MC San Andreas
AMP
SC Tazmon
Outland
Nog wat

[scant]

ohhh man! I still dont have a copy of that mag! Thanks for the heads up tho
When I click on the links they dont appear full screen, IE I cant read the text! Any way of altering that? Much appreciated

[Yo Eddy!]

Hi Scant,


Wait a few seconds and a an icon appeares in the right lower corner, than click! ...just like with all the other 1001 scans I posted already

[scant]

Originally Posted by Yo Eddy!

Wait a few seconds and a an icon appeares in the right lower corner, err, no it doesnt!

I appreciate all your scans tho

[Yo Eddy!]

I does work for me Drag your mouse to the image. It appears when you are on the image.

[outside!]

Originally Posted by scant

Litespeed did similiar to this as well. Cambria bike used to advertise a litespeed fat bastard. Which was essentially a litespeed built to FAT geometry (I asked cambriabike when they first advertised it )

Originally Posted by scant

where did you read the gary quote? I'd be curious to see the article scan it in if you can?

I have a '91 Litespeed Fat Bastard. Back in '91 when I was shopping for a new bike, I new I wanted Ti. I had ridden a Yo Eddy and loved the geometry. I called Merlin and asked if it was possilbe to get a custom frame with Yo Eddy geometry, top routed cables (Merlin was still going under the bottom bracket at the time) and rack mounts. The guy on the phone was very grumpy and quoted me very large number. Somewhere in there I called CBO and said that I was looking for a custom Ti frame. Without me even mentioning Yo Eddy geometry
[font=Arial]They told me that they were just about to order a batch of custom frames from Litespeed that were copies of the Yo Eddy and would have top routed cables. I asked about getting rack mounts, they said it would be no problem. I think the frame was $1700 and mine was one of 12 or 13 that they ordered. I don't know if they ever ordered another batch. I drove up to Cambria and spent a day picking out parts. I built it up with a Doug Bradbury Manitou fork, Grafton cranks, Bontrager anti-chain suck thing, XT thumbies (upside down and backwards of course), and various goodies. I had two sets of wheels, a 32h racing set with knobbies, and a 36h set with slicks for commuting. This bike saw years of riding, racing and commuting and went with me for a summer in Switzerland and a 10 day tour in Northern Italy. I just recently tuned the bike up again, and will take it out once the local trails dry out some. I use my other bike for mud rides.[/font]
Cheers!
Scott

[scant]

outside! Could you post up a picture please?

[Kirk Pacenti]

Originally Posted by Bssc

The merlin has a completely differing geometry to a Yo as the material it self dictates this.

Please explain this statement.

I am sure your not saying that just because Merlin used Ti over steel as in the YO!, that they couldnot use the YO's 72/71 geometry...are you?

[schneidw]

Originally Posted by Kirk Pacenti

Please explain this statement.

I am sure your not saying that just because Merlin used Ti over steel as in the YO!, that they couldnot use the YO's 72/71 geometry...are you?

I was wondering if that was the case.. the way Gary Helfrich made it sound the Merlin was essentially a TI clone of the Yo Eddy.. 72/73 correct?

[Kirk Pacenti]

I thought the YO was 71 head / 72 seat.

Regardless.... there is NO reason you could not build any geometry from Ti, steel, Alm, carbon whatever.

[scant]

maybe its just mean? I didnt assume the merlin being based on the yo eddy purely meant angles? IE tube profiles/ diameter etc..

[Bssc]

Head tube and seat tube angles do not make up the whole geometry/ design of a frame. Back then tubing choices for Ti was very limited frames had to be designed around the limitations of the metal. Things like bottom bracket drop were changed, top tube, down tube, seat stays and chain stays all had to be changed to make the bike somewhat act like a Ti Yo. Frame flex was never quite eliminated in the changes from the Yo geometry.


Now you can pretty much design a frame and drop in any material you wish with out fear of having to alter geometry's/ designs to suite the material.

[rody]

I understand what Bssc is saying Kirk. In the early 90's, when Ti was just coming into it's own, we were forced to build the frame's riding characteristics around what tubing was available. Most often, the early frames were built of .5" to 1.25" straight gauge 3/2.5 tubing, often available in 16' lengths plus drops.

What would normally be a tube for tube swap in dimensions (length, diameter, wall thickness) to copy a steel Yo to a Ti Yo would produce ride characteristics that were starkly different. In order to produce a comparable riding experience, changes in the tubing specs, or "geometry", was necessary. Increase the diameter of the downtube, steepen the head angle, shorten the chainstay, etc...

While the Yo was the platform for the early Merlins, the early Merlins were not simply a YO in Ti, but a carefully crafted frame to mimic the ride characteristics that were so successful.

cheers,

rody
Groovy Cycleworks

[Bssc]

Originally Posted by rody

I understand what Bssc is saying Kirk. In the early 90's, when Ti was just coming into it's own, we were forced to build the frame's riding characteristics around what tubing was available. Most often, the early frames were built of .5" to 1.25" straight gauge 3/2.5 tubing, often available in 16' lengths plus drops.

What would normally be a tube for tube swap in dimensions (length, diameter, wall thickness) to copy a steel Yo to a Ti Yo would produce ride characteristics that were starkly different. In order to produce a comparable riding experience, changes in the tubing specs, or "geometry", was necessary. Increase the diameter of the downtube, steepen the head angle, shorten the chainstay, etc...

While the Yo was the platform for the early Merlins, the early Merlins were not simply a YO in Ti, but a carefully crafted frame to mimic the ride characteristics that were so successful.

cheers,

rody
Groovy Cycleworks

Great same book different language, thanks. I was at a bit of a loss of how to describe what actually went on so all could understand.

[outside!]

Originally Posted by scant

outside! Could you post up a picture please?

Scant, sorry it took so long, summer vacation and all that. Here is a picture of my "Fat Bastard" after I cleaned it up and rebuilt the Manitou 3 (replaced a Manitou 2 with cracked crown which replace the original Manitou that had rusted inner legs). Finding Manitou 3 parts is not easy.

It still rides great, but my old butt likes rear suspension when I am off road, so this bike will be my townie and touring bike. I'd like to take it easy on the old components anyway. Kind of funny when I remember how I used to catch air off road with slick tires and fully loaded panniers. Sure did make the ride home from work more fun though.

Regarding the discussion on frame geometery, I have to admit I don't know what the frame angles are. I do know that it felt similar to a Yo Eddy that I rode before and after I got my bike. Maybe I should contact Litespeed and see if they have any info, they have always been helpful int he past. I will reiterate that back when I was shopping for a custom Ti bike, the guy on the phone at Merlin was a jerk. Don't know who he was, but he definitely lost a sale for Merlin that day. Forgive me for wanting top routed cables and rack mounts! I've kind of never cared for Merlin since then.

Best to all!

Scott in San Diego

[AB]

Interesting seat tube length. Thanks for the photo.