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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:01 PM   #1
Loveland
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Default FC Novice: What do I have?

Hi Folks,
Looking for some help ID'ing this frame and Forks. I was thinking it was a 1990/1991 Wicked but the Serial number 85477 seems to indicate an earlier bike than that but. Any help/ comments would be much appreciated.
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File Type: jpg Frame.jpg (234.7 KB, 53 views)
File Type: jpg Forks 2.jpg (204.1 KB, 32 views)
File Type: jpg Serial Number.jpg (58.3 KB, 43 views)
File Type: jpg D&D Logo.jpg (98.6 KB, 42 views)
File Type: jpg front derailleur pulley location.jpg (147.5 KB, 28 views)
File Type: jpg Drops.jpg (202.1 KB, 32 views)
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:22 PM   #2
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You have a 1985 Fat Chance Kicker.

That's in awesome condition, is that the original paint?
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Old August 21st, 2013, 12:57 PM   #3
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Kicker?

3X toptube mounted cables with seattube roller?

Threaded BB?

Something's not stirring the kool aide.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 1:04 PM   #4
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Pretty sure that's a 1992 Yo Eddy. The "77" is most likely "Y2". There should be another digit indicating the size, either an "M" or "S", for example the serial is probably 854Y2M.

The fork is not original. Not sure if the paint is original; the D+D sticker would be correct but if it is original than why would the non-Fat fork match the paint. Nice color!

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Old August 21st, 2013, 2:58 PM   #5
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Ok, I just got some more background info on this frame. I just spoke with my buddy who purchased the frame. He told me he didn't know what year the frame was but that he picked up the frame in 1992 at a NJ bike shop where he said the owner had the frame and forks displayed on the wall in mint condition (same paint) and the owner considered it a "trophy" (at that time). The owner told him it was an early "Fat Chance" (much older than 92') frame/fork in mint condition but he didn't specify any model name, just that it was a "Fat Chance". So if it's an 85 then it must have been about 7 years old at that time if the serial numbers are to be trusted which goes along with the bike shop owner's trophy story, I suppose. He also told me the frame had only white FC decals in 2 places (down tube and head tube) and there was no "made in Mass/don't tread" sticker on the seat tube near the bottom bracket. The only other decal was the D&D frame services decal on the bottom bracket. The 3X toptube mounted cables is what threw me off as well, ameybrook. I also noticed the unusual forks because they don't have the typical small "eyelets" (not sure what those are called). Seems to me it's possible that this was may have been an early "prototype" or something where they were experimenting with 3X top tube cables that later became std on Yo Eddy and Wicked. Is that possible?? Again, I'm a total nube. Also, I specificallyasked my buddy if the guy he bought it from told him if it was a kicker and he said no just "Fat Chance". He ended up putting all 1992 DXT components on it at the time so I'm pretty much starting from scratch if I want restore it to 1985 vintage. One other weird thing to note relating to the bottom bracket: I brought the frame to my local bike shop to have them crack the bottom bracket and they told me to hang on to it because it's a hard to find "italian threaded" bracket which adds another layer of complexity. I'd love to hear what everyone thinks after hearing the additional background.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 3:31 PM   #6
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Default Better look at Serial Number

From this angle the 8 sorta looks like a 3 but it was just struck poorly. As you can see it's clearly 85477 with no other letters. Which is consistant with 1985 serial numbers.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 4:07 PM   #7
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Thumbs Up Forks

Just a FYI
When I bought the bike the forks were with it and the had fat chance with the * down both sides

Regards,
Quote:
Originally Posted by jonsonneborn View Post
Pretty sure that's a 1992 Yo Eddy. The "77" is most likely "Y2". There should be another digit indicating the size, either an "M" or "S", for example the serial is probably 854Y2M.

The fork is not original. Not sure if the paint is original; the D+D sticker would be correct but if it is original than why would the non-Fat fork match the paint. Nice color!

Jon
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Old August 21st, 2013, 4:50 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Dude View Post
You have a 1985 Fat Chance Kicker.

That's in awesome condition, is that the original paint?
CJS (who just joined as a new member) is who I got the bike from and told me he bought it in 1992 from a bike shop with paint job you see. However, after talking to CJS it now looks like it may have been 7 years old when he bought it from the guy at the bike shop. So there's no way to be sure if it's orig. paint or not. From reading different threads it looks like (based on the D&D Frame Services decal) it could have been re-sprayed between 1985 and the time he bought it in 1992 but there's no way to be sure. I'm really curious about the frame as it looks like it may have been a one-off or special build of some sort because it's not like any other 1985 frames I've seen. Specifically the fact that it has 3x top tube cables and the forks are sans eyelets, etc.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 5:08 PM   #9
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I'll let those who have been there and done that give their expert opinions.....my gut instinct tells me that it's a 85 and has been reworked with top tube routing added (pulley insert on seat tube as well), and a repaint by D&D probably in the early 90's when top tube routing was all the rage.

Still a very nice frame and certainly worthy of a build up.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 5:39 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by ameybrook View Post
Kicker?

3X toptube mounted cables with seattube roller?

Threaded BB?

Something's not stirring the kool aide.
I know what you mean. That's why I posted the photos. The BB is also threaded "Italian style" (or reversed) according to my local bike shop. There was also an offest pully monted on the rear of the seat tube for the frnt Drllr that I think may be a little different vs. most 1985 frames I've seen. It's all very strange and I'd love to get to the bottom of what's up with this bike. Asuming it's not a fake it's got to have some kind of backstory that explains what it is.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 5:47 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zamfir View Post
I'll let those who have been there and done that give their expert opinions.....my gut instinct tells me that it's a 85 and has been reworked with top tube routing added (pulley insert on seat tube as well), and a repaint by D&D probably in the early 90's when top tube routing was all the rage.

Still a very nice frame and certainly worthy of a build up.
That would explain alot if you are right. But if that stuff was added later, what happened to steel cable guide for the rear Drllr that would have been added at the factory? Was it filed off?
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Old August 21st, 2013, 6:47 PM   #12
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Originally Posted by Loveland View Post
Hi Folks,
Looking for some help ID'ing this frame and Forks. I was thinking it was a 1990/1991 Wicked but the Serial number 85477 seems to indicate an earlier bike than that but. Any help/ comments would be much appreciated.

For what it's worth the forks have some markings on the break mounts. One sides had an F and the other side says R 9.5.
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Old August 21st, 2013, 8:25 PM   #13
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Just for kicks there is a 1986 FC on epray right now, serial #86623.

Removing the old bosses would be a normal thing to do, but what is more disturbing is the potential removal of the very cool above the bb guides that are seen on the epray frameset.

BTW, just for a little info. Back in the day I picked up a Marin Team issue that had traditional (below the bb) routing which I had changed to top tube routing, then a repaint. Made sense at the time.

Z
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 1:36 PM   #14
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So. This is what I'm thinking on this.. D&D frame services was a shop that did frame repair and repaints. My Wicked had the same stickers on it before i stripped it and had been repainted and "repaired by them. body filler" to fix a dent. It could be very possible that they relocated the cable stops to do an update on the frame if it had came in for a repaint or there repair. this frame screams Wicked. if it was a yo eddy it would have the L-bend chain stay on the drive side. The bb could have been a special order item when the frame was originally built By FFC. People did all sorts of weird stuff back then ! I know for a fact there is a Med Yo eddy out there that has had the cable stops removed and relocated to the top of the top tube.
Just My 2 cents.
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 5:52 PM   #15
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The serial number is odd. It could possibly be one of the Yo Eddy Prototype bikes built in late '89

I would be shocked if this bike was an '85; the tubing diameter, geometry & all of the frame details look like a '90s FCC product not an '80s. I have the serial number book from '85 & there is a bike in there with this exact serial but there are no indications of a threaded bottom bracket or anything out of norm. This SN book also has a section in the back of frames sent back for repair & this bike is not listed. If the BB shell was later swapped out for a threaded one than someone would have had to re-stamp the serial?

What size is this frame in inches? Any idea what size seatpost fits in the seat tube? This will clear up a lot of the confusion

By the way I am specualting allot based upon what my gut is telling me but if I am way off than hey, I was way off. Thanks so much for sharing this unusual bike!

Who else has a gut feeling on what this bike is? By the way I don't think that anyone has any doubt that this is a Fat Chance of sorts.

Jon
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 8:25 PM   #16
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OK I will give this a shot. I believe the serial number to be an '85 as stamped. I'm not sure how the BB was modified to accept threads. The press-in BBs had a lot reamed out so somebody must have pressed in (or brazed in) some type of threaded insert. Dean Dodson (of D&D fame) worked as a painter at FCC Somerville until he suffered kidney failure and wound up getting a transplant from his father who had passed away suddenly. If I remember correctly, he went back to California after recovering from the transplant. I think he had D&D going already before he came out to Somerville to work for Chris and then he just went back to it.

The welding on the frame tubes and dropouts appear to be vintage Gary Helfrich. The rear brake mounts are the old single-hole Shimano mounts that we used to weld the corners and insides (I hated those effing things)

The frame was obviously modified (possibly at FCC and painted by Dean) but more likely done in CA. It is possible that some repair was needed such as replacing a dented top tube or a rusted seat tube.

The fork is not an FCC fork. We never used brake mounts like that (with the stamping, and crooked!!!) and we never left open vent holes in fork tubes. Our unicrowns had welded dropouts and those are brazed (hence the vent holes)

So, most likely it really is an '85 Kicker with regular Fat Chance geometry - 69 degree head angle and 2" rake fork (have no idea what THAT fork has for geometry)

Best of Luck
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Old August 22nd, 2013, 11:18 PM   #17
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I find this thread very interesting, and really dig the FC insight from the pros.

Any way to put some wheels on the bike so we can see the stance? I'm guessing horizontal top tube.

Z
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 12:06 AM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by I-ROBOT View Post
OK I will give this a shot. I believe the serial number to be an '85 as stamped. I'm not sure how the BB was modified to accept threads. The press-in BBs had a lot reamed out so somebody must have pressed in (or brazed in) some type of threaded insert. Dean Dodson (of D&D fame) worked as a painter at FCC Somerville until he suffered kidney failure and wound up getting a transplant from his father who had passed away suddenly. If I remember correctly, he went back to California after recovering from the transplant. I think he had D&D going already before he came out to Somerville to work for Chris and then he just went back to it.

The welding on the frame tubes and dropouts appear to be vintage Gary Helfrich. The rear brake mounts are the old single-hole Shimano mounts that we used to weld the corners and insides (I hated those effing things)

The frame was obviously modified (possibly at FCC and painted by Dean) but more likely done in CA. It is possible that some repair was needed such as replacing a dented top tube or a rusted seat tube.

The fork is not an FCC fork. We never used brake mounts like that (with the stamping, and crooked!!!) and we never left open vent holes in fork tubes. Our unicrowns had welded dropouts and those are brazed (hence the vent holes)

So, most likely it really is an '85 Kicker with regular Fat Chance geometry - 69 degree head angle and 2" rake fork (have no idea what THAT fork has for geometry)

Best of Luck
Scott
Thanks Scott! I was hoping you would see this post and jump in. Very cool. Huge help! FYI, I stripped the paint off today and notced a few places where the frame looks like it's may have been repaired. However, I'm not entirely sure what I should be looking for! Now that the paint is off, are there any clues I should look for to try and determine if something has been replaced/repaired or modified? All the welding looks really clean to me but I'm no expert.

Thanks to everyone for helping out a rook on what's turning out to be something of a frankenbike. I'm really having fun with it!
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 12:57 PM   #19
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[QUOTE=jonsonneborn;21843]The serial number is odd. It could possibly be one of the Yo Eddy Prototype bikes built in late '89

I would be shocked if this bike was an '85; the tubing diameter, geometry & all of the frame details look like a '90s FCC product not an '80s. I have the serial number book from '85 & there is a bike in there with this exact serial but there are no indications of a threaded bottom bracket or anything out of norm. This SN book also has a section in the back of frames sent back for repair & this bike is not listed. If the BB shell was later swapped out for a threaded one than someone would have had to re-stamp the serial?

What size is this frame in inches? Any idea what size seatpost fits in the seat tube? This will clear up a lot of the confusion

By the way I am specualting allot based upon what my gut is telling me but if I am way off than hey, I was way off. Thanks so much for sharing this unusual bike!

Who else has a gut feeling on what this bike is? By the way I don't think that anyone has any doubt that this is a Fat Chance of sorts.

The seatpost is 26.2MM
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 1:02 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Retro Dude View Post
You have a 1985 Fat Chance Kicker.

That's in awesome condition, is that the original paint?
[FONT=Calibri][/FONT]
[FONT=Calibri]All indications are that it was repainted between 1985 and 1992. [/FONT]
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 1:05 PM   #21
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For what it's worth the forks have some markings on the break mounts. One sides had an F and the other side says R 9.5.
Stripped some paint off the forks and now see they are clearly marked Tange.
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 3:45 PM   #22
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Default Some more pictures w/ paint removed

Here's a look at the frame with its clothes off. Looks like it was repaired/altered in several places then re-painted. I'm basing that assumption on the premise that the brass/copper looking spots on the middle of seat tube and also the down tube near BB are in fact repairs of some sort?? I also included close ups of the weird BB for further review as well as a photo of some (pitting??) on the stay opposite the chain. At first I assumed it was blue corrossion that I was sanding and then it occured to me that I may have removing fill that may (ironically) have been used to fill pitting from previous corrosion?? If that's the case, I'll file it under live and learn. I included a few other pics too. There is a stamp near the bottom of the seat tube that says "ED 19/22" that I thought I'd include as well (whatver that means). This has been cool learning experience and I really appreciate all the help and input. I started polishing up the frame last night and have more to do. Any suggestions on how to proceed from here with chain damage and the pitting on chainstays. Also, I know a guy who has a paint shop on his property that does a ton of work for the local auto auto dealerships and he's done a great for me with my car in the past. I was thinking I would have him spray the frame. Or should I send it off to D&D in CA for a 2nd go round with them? (I checked and they are still in business). Also, I like the Blue color from 1985 but since this bike is so heavily modified is it totally beside the point to try and stick with orig. colors? Speaking of "orig": Is there any way to tell by looking at it if the BB (minus paint) if it was orig vs. switched out or threaded at some point? Because I can't see any evidence of the Kicker cable guides were ever there but then again maybe I wouldn't. In my non-expert opinion the welding looks identical at every (joint like the same person did it all). THX!!
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File Type: jpg frame.jpg (94.7 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6104.jpg (62.9 KB, 24 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6109.jpg (48.3 KB, 20 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6137.jpg (55.4 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6155.jpg (106.5 KB, 22 views)
File Type: jpg IMG_6172.jpg (196.0 KB, 23 views)
File Type: jpg Stamp on seat tube near BB.jpg (110.5 KB, 25 views)
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 3:50 PM   #23
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Default Photos

Few more photos for detective work.
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File Type: jpg IMG_6178.jpg (91.6 KB, 15 views)
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Old August 23rd, 2013, 9:45 PM   #24
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Definitely one of the more interesting threads here lately...Cool frame whatever it is.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 12:03 AM   #25
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Tange sounds right.
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Old August 24th, 2013, 12:31 AM   #26
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Tange sounds right.
I see the log says 16" but I just measured the frame (from center of BB to top of seat tube) and it's 17.5"!!!
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Old August 24th, 2013, 10:40 AM   #27
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Quote:
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I see the log says 16" but I just measured the frame (from center of BB to top of seat tube) and it's 17.5"!!!
Now measure it center to center and see what you come up with. IIRC that how Fats were measured for size.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 2:07 PM   #28
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Default Regular Seat Tube = Reynolds 531?

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Tange sounds right.
Does Reg. Seat tube mean Reynolds 531? Because "Reynolds 351 Butted 19/22" is stamped on the ST.
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Old August 26th, 2013, 2:10 PM   #29
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Now measure it center to center and see what you come up with. IIRC that how Fats were measured for size.
Yup 16"! Thanks very much for the help!
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Old August 26th, 2013, 6:04 PM   #30
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Quote:
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Does Reg. Seat tube mean Reynolds 531? Because "Reynolds 351 Butted 19/22" is stamped on the ST.
I assumed that "Reg" meant that the seat tube was whatever the regular tubing type FCC was using back in '85 which it looks like was Reynolds 532 butted 19/22"
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Old August 31st, 2013, 9:37 PM   #31
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FWIW I have an 80s Fat that has fittings for both top tube and under the bottom bracket cable routing. It appears to be original, not re-painted. I was told that this was likely a special order bike. Also cam ewith a box crown fork and roller cam brakes
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Old November 1st, 2013, 4:15 PM   #32
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Default Repainted 85' Kicker frame (heavily modified) w/ 1992 everything else

The overhaul is complete! Here's the finished procuct. Thanks for all the help and comments as I attempted to figure out what I was working with. The paint color is "WR blue pearl". The guy I had paint it ended up using same paint Suburu is using on their 2014 WRX concept car. I didn't have to change or replace any of the 1992 components. I just cleaned and degreased everything, replace tires, all cables/housimg, and replaced and repacked all the bearings. Just took it out for a spin and it's running like a dream. Well worth the time and effort.
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Old November 1st, 2013, 4:53 PM   #33
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Great looking bike! Nice job on the resto. It's funny, but when I saw the handwriting in the frame log I did a double take- looks exactly like the handwriting of someone who used to work at Seven (where I work now) and would fill out the frame log. And this person worked at FCC in the earley days.
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