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Builder's Corner Restoration and preservation. Keep them running in perfect shape. What size is your bottom bracket?

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Old August 30th, 2007, 8:20 PM   #1
masiman
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Default New build

Hi All,

I just picked up a '91 Wicked http://www.fatcogs.com/forum/showthr...85W18#post7229. I need some parts ideas for restoring. Everything does not need to be completely period. This will be my primary MTB so it will be ridden. Shifting and braking need to be great and parts have to be reliable. It does not need to be the lightest part ever. In my mind XT type components or better. At least when XT and XTR were about the best vanilla racer options unless you went for something like Paul, Cook Bros., Chris King, etc.

I am sending the frame to Chris I. to repair a small crack and check out the seat tube. I don't plan on painting this for now but I would like to pick up a set

I pretty much need everything except for BB, headset and post. 1" head tube, threaded, 135mm spacing.

My old MTB is thumbshifters but the few times I have ridden rapidfire, I have liked them. I am not sure if I could do well with seperate levers and pods or if combo units are the way to go. I would like V-brakes unless you think otherwise. I would prefer a quill stem but will do the adapter if necessary. I would like the stem to have a removable plate for easy access to the bar.

If you have ideas of what parts mix would work well, let me know. I have not followed the MTB scene for years, and I have forgotten most of what I knew. Makers are familiar but quality and pitfall info was not retained .

Or even if you have a line on a good donor bike, send me an email or a PM.

Thanks,
masiman
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Old August 30th, 2007, 8:48 PM   #2
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if you like v brakes and rapid fires.. do it. not pretty in my book but i like modern builds on old frames. you will need an older crank since it's one of those pressed in BBs. you will need to match spindle and crank. what do you have there? old xt cranks can be had on ebay. ebay became a bitch recently but there are still some deals out there.
quill stem and removable plate? i can only think of salsa but i doubt yo will find anything longer than 120mm... control tech made a quill stem w/ removable plate a looong time ago. i had one. never saw one of those on ebay or elsewhere. i think adapters and aheadstems make one of the saddest, ugliest things in cycling. why not an old fashioned beautifull quill stem?
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Old August 30th, 2007, 8:50 PM   #3
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btw... i am on the hunt for one of those syncros posts for my wicked.
stem is now a tbone. brake levers are dia compe ss7 and saddle is a black flite.
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Old August 30th, 2007, 11:16 PM   #4
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Thanks for the reply colker.

Ya, I forgot to say that it is the pressed in BB, square taper. I thought the spindles were standard in terms of the size of the squares. I know different lengths are available for getting the chainline and clearance right. Speaking of which, the bearings were not in QBP. The are 99502. I found them online as go-kart bearings, maybe used in ATV's also. I think they have clips on them. Anyone have a lead on where I can get some? Mine are feeling a little rough.

Quote:
Originally Posted by colker View Post
if you like v brakes and rapid fires.. do it. not pretty in my book but i like modern builds on old frames.
It seemed like you were saying that you did not like modern (v brake and rapidfire) but then you said that you do like modern on old. I am not sure what you are calling modern vs. old I guess. Maybe you mean disc?

I'll consider an old quill, but I always thought their styling was a little weak. If I can't find what I am looking for I'll have to decide if the traditional quill look is better than the function and availability of various threadless stuff. I agree about threadless on road bikes but I always liked the threadless look on MTB's. Although I do like the vertical adjustability of the quills. Much more helpful in trying to figure out what riding position you want. I.e., you can vary the height until comfortable and then figure out what length you want from there. With the threadless you have to search around it.

I did not know the syncros were sought after until I picked it up. I'll keep it for now unless I find something else I like better.

Again, I intend to ride this thing and I don't want to have to worry about parts availability in years to come. I would hope a stem would be a one time purchase but maybe I'd want to change my position for different big rides.

Now I am thinking maybe I should use the XT gruppo from my current MTB to outfit this one and then get replacement stuff for whichever ride. Hmm, that is a way to get it on the road sooner and piece together stuff. I plan on selling it to a neighbor for cheap. He really liked the old Stumpjumper I found for his son.

I too have the SS7's on my current bike. I do like them, but they are canti levers. If I find a nice good performing, good looking set of canti's, I could go with that. I am not excited about my XT canti's.

I have the least idea about the brakes and shifters. I'll have to see what pods if any are available. I may have to go the combo route.

A big thanks for your thoughts!
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Old September 1st, 2007, 2:49 PM   #5
bruce t
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Hey, you lucked out on that Syncros post!! Almost impossible to find a quality 26.4 seatpost anymore.... I looked for a year for one, before getting one on eBay, and the few that showed up sold for stupid money (like, a hundred bucks).

Quill stems show up occasionally on ebay -- although it's hard to find quills with a cantilever boss (I hate those extra canti rings in the headset). So if you go v-brake, at least in the front, you'll give yourself more options.

I'm running XT cranks on a 130mm spindle on my '89 Wicked, just cause that's what I put on it in 1991.... Also, XT canti's.

Poke around on ebay and you'll eventually find bars, barends, etc.

Rody (here on the page) has BB bearings and collars (I just ordered a set from him).

Good luck on the build.

Cheers, bt
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Old September 1st, 2007, 5:08 PM   #6
masiman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce t View Post
Hey, you lucked out on that Syncros post!! Almost impossible to find a quality 26.4 seatpost anymore.... I looked for a year for one, before getting one on eBay, and the few that showed up sold for stupid money (like, a hundred bucks).

Quill stems show up occasionally on ebay -- although it's hard to find quills with a cantilever boss (I hate those extra canti rings in the headset). So if you go v-brake, at least in the front, you'll give yourself more options.

I'm running XT cranks on a 130mm spindle on my '89 Wicked, just cause that's what I put on it in 1991.... Also, XT canti's.

Poke around on ebay and you'll eventually find bars, barends, etc.

Rody (here on the page) has BB bearings and collars (I just ordered a set from him).

Good luck on the build.

Cheers, bt
Thanks for the info. I don't like the canti rings also, but I'll do it if it makes it work. I'll probably go the V-brake route. I have not found good resources to look at pods, levers and combo units yet.

On that Stumpjumper I bought for my neighbor, I did notice he had the shorty Onza bars that I always liked. I'll snag those from him and get him a new pair. He won't appreciate the Onza's as much as me .

I also switched the Stumpjumper over to a threadless adapter (with canti ring). It was that or get V-brakes (and new shifters, etc.). He needed a shorter stem. It is not the prettiest but it does work out okay.

I'll send Rody a PM for the bearings and a spare collar set.

In the short term, mine will end up similar to yours BT. My old XT stuff is from '90 or '91. I'll see if I can find some time to work on it after the kids start back to school.

Cheers
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Old September 3rd, 2007, 11:17 PM   #7
masiman
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Default I couldn't wait

I was hankering to experience that feeling from all those years ago. So this afternoon, I dragged up the old Technium and started to strip it. Surprisingly quick. The worst part was taking the bar off the stem. I did not want to screw around with taking everything off, so I manually spread the bar clamp. What a pain.

Everything was dirty from being put away grungy about 5 years ago and not ridden since. I didn't care, cause I knew the parts were good. It also gave me a chance to inventory exactly what I had on that bike. I remember at the time I had wanted durable decent quality parts. I spent the extra money in the der. and braking.


So.....

XT front and rear der, XT cranks, XT 7sp thumbies (1987, M730 series)

Deore rear Canti ('88), Deore II front Canti ('89)

Hubs are Exage with RM-25 rims. One campy road skewer on front and a no name one on back.

Control Tech Stix horns. I am going to swap to the Onza shorties, hopefully in a couple of weeks.

'90 or '91. I told the shop to use their spare parts bin to build the bike up cheaper. So the older XT parts make sense.

Dia-comp SS-5 levers.

No name steel bar (5deg. bend?).

Selle Italia Turbo saddle that I bought from a shop going out of business in 93-94. The saddle has maybe 300 miles on it from when I put it on a bike last year.

Nightsun light.

I did purchase the bike in
Most of my cables were in good shape. With the top tube routing, some of them were short. I had to forego a front der.

I could not get the new longer stem to close after spreading so I had to slice off a grip and remove the horn, brake lever and thumbie. Slid the bar on reinstalled the parts except for the Nightsun. I tried not to hit the bar when I used the utility knife to slice the grip, but I did. Also the part did not cooperate coming off. But I did not care, cause I know I will get a new bar anyway.

The front derailleur clamp was for a 31.8mm tube. The Wicked needs a 28.6mm clamp. I found a shim from my parts bin. You can see it in one of the pics. I searched but could not find a replacement band. I will ahve to ride with this as is for now.

I did not bother to tweak the lever and control positions. I did set the brakes fairly well. I reused most of the housing, but had to cut some new stuff. I coiled the excess. The street/trail tires were fairly flat.

My first little coast down the drive and the low tires made control difficult. Good thing, because our somewhat steep drive forced me to bail quickly I find that the stem was not tight. Fixed the stem and rode on the low tires. It felt really dead and hard to steer. I was worried that the headset was hosed. I did not want to have to find a 1" threaded headset! Brakes were good tightness but I had a god awful screech from the rear. I did buy some new Kool Stops but I have not installed them. Maybe the Kool Stops will come around after some wear. I have Eagle Claws on the front that have been quiet.

I came back pumped up the tires and set off again. Smooth, smooth, smooth. It felt much way more twitchy than I remembered. I then thought, I must be getting old out of shape and out of practice. Maybe some practice and knobbies will put me where I need to be on it. My quick rear der. setup was spot on, 1-7 were smooth and quick. Because I did not have cable to set up the front, I was on the granny.

Later on I saw that I had lost the front der. cable clamp bolt. It must have vibrated off while I was test riding, DOH! In the same picture that shows the shim you can also NOT see the cable clamp bolt and washer .

It looks the rear hanger is slight bent. I'll let the shop measure it out.

I definitely started getting more comfortable on the bike. I rode by all my neighbors and showed it off. Kind of drag to have to explain how cool the bike actually is, lol. I even let one neighbor try it. He said man that thing is rough. He did say his bike experience is pretty much a $499 Mongoose full suspension thingy. I told him, this thing is the shiznit. I can't wait to get on a trail and see the double takes. Especially if I can pass some suspension bikes. I'll let you know how badly I get dropped, lol.

- I'd like to find some good/great hubs. I am thinking I want to put this to 9speed. Anyone have something I might be interested in? I probably should just get a new wheelset as these RM-25's are schrader and I'd like to have presta.
- I want a new bar, but that should not be a problem. Preferably black.
- I need new grips.
- I think I'll keep the levers for now. I like being able to actuate them from the horns with my fingertips. The levers are longish, but okay for now.
- I'll need to find a replacement front der cable clamp bolt, but that should not be hard. Famous last words, lol.
- I am not sure where I will go with the brakes. V-brakes are still an option but these canti's stop fine for now. I can just see the housing stop being an issue, as I would like to get a different stem. I may choose V-brakes over a headset housing stop ring. Has anyone drilled out a stem to make a cable stop? I don't know how successful that would be.
- I want to put a lower profile lighter weight saddle on. The turbo really should be on a road bike.
- I will probably upgrade the pedals. I don't know what though.
- I may pick up a new front der. with a 28.6 clamp for when I decide I don't want the shim on there.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Wicked build 002 (Large).jpg (73.3 KB, 16 views)
File Type: jpg Wicked build 003 (Large).jpg (140.1 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Wicked build 004 (Large).jpg (89.6 KB, 17 views)
File Type: jpg Wicked build 005 (Large).jpg (101.9 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Wicked build 006 (Large).jpg (73.1 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg Wicked build 007 (Large).jpg (116.4 KB, 13 views)
File Type: jpg Wicked build 008 (Large).jpg (72.2 KB, 11 views)
File Type: jpg Wicked build 009 (Large).jpg (134.7 KB, 10 views)
File Type: jpg Wicked build 010 (Large).jpg (71.6 KB, 8 views)
File Type: jpg Wicked build 011 (Large).jpg (104.1 KB, 6 views)

Last edited by masiman; September 4th, 2007 at 9:11 AM.
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Old September 4th, 2007, 9:06 AM   #8
mainlyfats
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Default Pie plate!

Make it stop daddy!

Another old Fat rides again.
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Old September 5th, 2007, 1:35 AM   #9
bruce t
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Default whoa!!

I admire your determination, but take your time! I'm not too nuts about the idea of "spreading" a stem... invites metal fatigue. Just take the components off, take your time.

SS-5's are fine -- I have them on my '89 Wicked, but if you go with V-brakes, you'll have to replace those too. They won't give you enough cable pull.

I'm down with seven speeds -- I'm down with eight. As a curmudgeon, I think eight's plenty. Go with nine, and you get narrower chains (less strong in my book), and it's more demanding on the front derailleur (it might rub on the high and low gears).

Shifters-- again those you have are fine, for seven or eight. Nine, you're kind of forced to go with some kind of rapidfire or gripshift thingy (Paul does make a mount to turn barend nines into thumbies) which can be fussy. I finally gave up on my XT rapidfire front "pod" and went back to the same XT front thumbie that you've got. I'm not at all a fan of indexed front shifting (I don't mind the rapidfire eight rear, at least it works.... (more than I can say for the front).

If you want "great" hubs, you can't beat Chris King -- you can build a great light, strong wheelset with those, but they'll cost as much as your bike. I bought a pair of White Industries/Mavic wheels on ebay (I think from a fellow FatCogger) for about $90. You can find good wheelsets, reasonable, on the bay, if you watch for awhile.

I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole a stem that someone had drilled for a canti stop.... some of the factory-drilled ones were even prone to failure (I've heard that about the Grove Innovations that's on my Wicked....).

Nice flat bars are available all the time on ebay for around ten bucks. (I got some 150 gram bars off an M2 stumpjumper for about that).

One inch headsets -- I would guess your Mavic is fine, but Chris King's are always the cat's meow for a quality build, and easily available.

Ringle did make Zooka quill stems with one-inch quills and a removable front plate, but they're scarce, and no canti boss. Answer ATAC and Syncros Cattleprods are also good period choices, and sometimes do have the canti boss. But these are also hard to find. I was surprised to see a Syncros sell for $75 on ebay the other day. You sound like you're leaning toward V-brakes anyway, they will make your stem search easier.

And just spring for a new XT or so cable set, stainless is better, cut it to the corrrect lengths when you get all your other parts set.

Cheers, bt
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Old September 5th, 2007, 2:24 AM   #10
masiman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce t View Post
I admire your determination, but take your time! I'm not too nuts about the idea of "spreading" a stem... invites metal fatigue. Just take the components off, take your time.
Ya, I was not too concerned about this stem otherwise I would have done the bar item removals from the start. It won't be on there for long . I was trying to save the grip, there was no way that was coming off without cutting.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce t View Post
SS-5's are fine -- I have them on my '89 Wicked, but if you go with V-brakes, you'll have to replace those too. They won't give you enough cable pull.
Ya, I agree there. I would like to keep them but the brake issue may force that decision.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce t View Post
I'm down with seven speeds -- I'm down with eight. As a curmudgeon, I think eight's plenty. Go with nine, and you get narrower chains (less strong in my book), and it's more demanding on the front derailleur (it might rub on the high and low gears).

Shifters-- again those you have are fine, for seven or eight. Nine, you're kind of forced to go with some kind of rapidfire or gripshift thingy (Paul does make a mount to turn barend nines into thumbies) which can be fussy. I finally gave up on my XT rapidfire front "pod" and went back to the same XT front thumbie that you've got. I'm not at all a fan of indexed front shifting (I don't mind the rapidfire eight rear, at least it works.... (more than I can say for the front).
I may just go with an 8. Cruising around I had forgotten how easy the thumbs were. I would have to get new ones though, mine are 7's. I agree with you about the front indexing, kind of worthless, even a detriment when the clicks are a bit off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce t View Post
If you want "great" hubs, you can't beat Chris King -- you can build a great light, strong wheelset with those, but they'll cost as much as your bike. I bought a pair of White Industries/Mavic wheels on ebay (I think from a fellow FatCogger) for about $90. You can find good wheelsets, reasonable, on the bay, if you watch for awhile.
That's that kind of thing I am looking for. Just none out there on ebay or DC CL right now. A buddy wrote that he has a mid-90's XT/Mavic wheelset. If the price is right I'll probably pick that up to get me on the trails. I'll keep looking for a "boutique" set.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce t View Post
I wouldn't touch with a ten-foot pole a stem that someone had drilled for a canti stop.... some of the factory-drilled ones were even prone to failure (I've heard that about the Grove Innovations that's on my Wicked....).

Nice flat bars are available all the time on ebay for around ten bucks. (I got some 150 gram bars off an M2 stumpjumper for about that).

One inch headsets -- I would guess your Mavic is fine, but Chris King's are always the cat's meow for a quality build, and easily available.
The logistics of getting the cable to sit properly on a home drill was not coming out clean in my mind. Just thought I'd ask in case others had successfully done it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce t View Post
Ringle did make Zooka quill stems with one-inch quills and a removable front plate, but they're scarce, and no canti boss. Answer ATAC and Syncros Cattleprods are also good period choices, and sometimes do have the canti boss. But these are also hard to find. I was surprised to see a Syncros sell for $75 on ebay the other day. You sound like you're leaning toward V-brakes anyway, they will make your stem search easier.
I am actually starting to enjoy the retro aspects alot more. I never used to want for better brakes except maybe at the end of long rides in that wet Seattle grit with lots of steep sections that would tire the hands out. But then again, that was part of the fun. Around here in DC, I won't be running into that. I am more trying to think how I can keep the canti's. One bahstad solution is to do a V front and canti rear. An ugly step child but I am almost positive that there are levers that do V and Canti. I may just give up on the face plate thing and get a no name stem with a canti stop.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bruce t View Post
And just spring for a new XT or so cable set, stainless is better, cut it to the corrrect lengths when you get all your other parts set.
Cheers, bt[/quote]

Parts list was started yesterday. I'll be getting all new housing (brake and der), plus brake cables. And that cable clamp bolt, lol.
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Old September 5th, 2007, 5:39 PM   #11
rody
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.... some of the factory-drilled ones were even prone to failure (I've heard that about the Grove Innovations that's on my Wicked....).

Okay, gotta call shananagins on that one. I've never seen one, that means none, of the Grove stems break due to the canti cable hole; and there are probably a thousand of those out there.

When a hole is drilled through a tube, it does lessen the strength of the material under stress. However, when it is then replaced with a thicker, stronger item, that has been properly engineered for the application, it becomes a symbiotic relationship, increasing the resistance to failure.

In the case of the Grove stems and one piece bar/stem combos, the tube is laterally ovalized to provide a massive torsional resistance to rider induced stress. The canti hole is but a miniscule portion of the total surface area, and is then connected with the one piece insert, effectively creating an internal strut...totally bomber. Additionally, the stem portion utilizes heat treated .049" tubing, a thickness only Big Lou Farrigno and his Hulkness could twist.

Do tell, who have you heard this from, so I may pummel them senseless with a broom.

cheers,

rody

PS...nothing beats Phil hubs...build them and forget them.

Last edited by rody; September 5th, 2007 at 5:40 PM. Reason: added the PS
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Old September 6th, 2007, 1:21 AM   #12
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Hey Rody,

Well, I haven't had any trouble with it, and I did pound it pretty good....

I was told that by two people: the guy I bought the frame and box of parts from in 1991, and one of the managers at the LBS that used to sell Fats....

To be truthful, I'm relieved.... I like that stem, it seems bomber, and I've always had this little nagging worry in the back of my mind that it might break, and I should find a backup....

You ever hear it before?

Cheers, bt
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Old September 6th, 2007, 9:04 PM   #13
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Nope...never heard of it before and I helped build them.

We had broken stuff come back, mostly on our Team Prototype parts (but then again, that's what prototypes are for ), but never any of the stems or bar/stem combos.

You can definately ride it hard...care to post a pic of the stem?

cheers,

rody
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Old September 10th, 2007, 11:42 AM   #14
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Default syncros seat post

I have an extra syncross seat post if you need one
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