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Old March 22nd, 2007, 6:02 PM   #1
mainlyfats
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Default If nobody owns the name...

What's up with the disclaimer?

This site is in no way affiliated with the former Fat City Cycles, it's former owners
or any of it's products. This site is owned and run exclusively by enthusiasts and fans of the former company.


As I understand it, no one owns FCC or the Fat Chance name and Doug certainly doesn't profit from it with this site.

I guess I find it interesting that First Flight has resurrected Mountain Goat in some kind of agreement with its original owner, but nothing's been done with Fat Chance. Again, as I understand it, Chris seems to want nothing to do with it and Wendyll - the less said the better from me - seems, to put it charitably, disinterested in maintaining the "greatest-little-bike-company-in-the-world" brand.

I think I recall Kirk saying he'd sniffed around at the Fat name, but got nowhere.

Anybody else care to weigh-in on the possible successes or failures of a revived Fat Chance?

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Old March 23rd, 2007, 9:34 AM   #2
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I think the market for high end hardtails is slimmer than we all think, and that it is already well covered by the custom shops. IF tried to do things in the fat mold when they started out and ultimately ended up going full custom. I think it would be tough to get the sales volume necessary to put the price a fair bit less than a custom bike, which is really where you would need to be in order to be successful.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 11:37 AM   #3
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i say leave as it is.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 2:59 PM   #4
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Lucifer has it right in my opinion (He is Lucifer after all).

When I wanted a new hardtail the selection was great for custom bikes. If Fat were still around it would have been high on the list for sure. I looked at all the usual suspects and even looked at carbon, ti, aluminum, scandium, whatever, because bikes have changed since I got my Yo. In the end, I went with a custom fillet steel bike. Off the shelf bikes of comparable quality were around the same price. I only would have bought a non-custom for two reasons 1) much cheaper but still great quality 2) weight.

I decided to sacrifice a lb (or two) to guarantee the ride quality I wanted because there were no cheap well built steel hardtails. It is a small market indeed.

Just as point of reference, you can buy a nice carbon frame that weighs 1200 grams for $500. It is tough to compete selling at $1850 for an 1800 gram frame.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 4:46 PM   #5
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i totally disagree on either the custom and the carbon. a fat chance or ibis or any other quality frame is a known quantity: you get what you know. a custom can be good and can be not. anyone telling you a custom is above everything else cause it's unique doesn't know bikes. a fat chance has a geometry which was researched and perfected. i have a custom and i have a fat. unless i have a weird body proportion my fit is pretty much covered by fat chance or ritchey or ibis specs.
as for carbon.. yeah right. if you equal weight and quality, sure but ALL discerning riders i meet KNOW what matters is ride quality, handling, balance.
btw.. aren't you the one who finds your yo eddy a bad bike? so why do you keep posting these things here?
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 4:51 PM   #6
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I think the market for high end hardtails is slimmer than we all think, and that it is already well covered by the custom shops. IF tried to do things in the fat mold when they started out and ultimately ended up going full custom. I think it would be tough to get the sales volume necessary to put the price a fair bit less than a custom bike, which is really where you would need to be in order to be successful.
mountain biking lost momentum to road riding plus FullSusp bikes which are more about technology than soul, juju and perfect balance hurt the steel and ti hardtail. a company based on high cost, limited production models can't survive.. hence the custom mode. it's less about custom made geometry and more about not dealing w/ quotas promised to shops and distributors. my 0.2c.
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 5:48 PM   #7
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Quote:
btw.. aren't you the one who finds your yo eddy a bad bike? so why do you keep posting these things here?
I don't think so Colker. Moreover I don't think it is a good thing to ask anybody to leave if he is not aggressive, very rude or something like that. My 2cts on this.

On topic: I think the all new 2008 Yo Eddy! should be issued in full carbon monocoque I won't buy it, but others sure will ...and that is were it all about right? We can't continue protecting people against themselves with their stupid decisions. No, we should benefit. Helps us paying for the real stuff
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Old March 23rd, 2007, 6:13 PM   #8
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Default Ah yes, the Ibis model...

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I don't think so Colker. Moreover I don't think it is a good thing to ask anybody to leave if he is not aggressive, very rude or something like that. My 2cts on this.

On topic: I think the all new 2008 Yo Eddy! should be issued in full carbon monocoque I won't buy it, but others sure will ...and that is were it all about right? We can't continue protecting people against themselves with their stupid decisions. No, we should benefit. Helps us paying for the real stuff
...That's so weird IMO. But, I have a friend who works at a big shop here in Canada and they can't keep them in stock. Is it because people want a carbon rig? No - it's because they had a buddy who had an Ibis, or couldn't afford one back in the day, or have an old Mojo at home. They MUST have an Ibis.

I don't know the numbers, so I might be talking out my a$$ here, but I'm willing to wager that there were more Fat Chances put out than all the Ibis' and Mountain Goats, the vintage MTB community gets so excited about put together.

The bottom line is that it's still a great BRAND, with tremendous recognition in the all the right places.

And it's not as though the recipe was so complicated. No offense to any FCC ex-welders, but I've never had one that could hold a candle to, say, a Ted Wojcik. The Yo Eddy/Buck geometry was successfully ripped off by Merlin for years and is now pretty much "the classic" 90's ride feel. Wickeds, old Teams and Fat Chances are way too slack for most riders raised on 90's or 00 bikes, but would probably do OK - market wise - as off-road/heavy-duty tourers.

The brand and geometry are like an old glove: patina, memories and great fit. While I agree that there's no shortage of frame builders out there (if you're a part of frameforum you'll know that there's a huge resurgence of small builders), there is a shortage of credible brands.

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Old March 23rd, 2007, 6:36 PM   #9
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Actually I think the Ibis is a pretty prety bike for a carbon fs. More svelte and elegant looking than for example another higher end fs monocoque, the Storck Organic (honestly I don't know many more than those, probably because they lay a bit outside my field of interest). The Storck looks a pretty death lump and defo not as organic as the name suggests. Maybe it has also to do with its age. It is a bit older.

Something like a Scale, but not as boring. More punk. Also more upscale. Think you got the 08 Yo than

For as far as the old salesfigures are concerned: On an old document from a company who represented FAT in the Netherlands for a very short while I read that late eighties anual output was about 2000 frames. 18 people worked for FAT at the time. The same document tells me that Mountain Goat workforce counted 4 people.
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Old March 24th, 2007, 9:33 AM   #10
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Originally Posted by mainlyfats View Post
...That's so weird IMO. But, I have a friend who works at a big shop here in Canada and they can't keep them in stock. Is it because people want a carbon rig? No - it's because they had a buddy who had an Ibis, or couldn't afford one back in the day, or have an old Mojo at home. They MUST have an Ibis.

I don't know the numbers, so I might be talking out my a$$ here, but I'm willing to wager that there were more Fat Chances put out than all the Ibis' and Mountain Goats, the vintage MTB community gets so excited about put together.

The bottom line is that it's still a great BRAND, with tremendous recognition in the all the right places.

And it's not as though the recipe was so complicated. No offense to any FCC ex-welders, but I've never had one that could hold a candle to, say, a Ted Wojcik. The Yo Eddy/Buck geometry was successfully ripped off by Merlin for years and is now pretty much "the classic" 90's ride feel. Wickeds, old Teams and Fat Chances are way too slack for most riders raised on 90's or 00 bikes, but would probably do OK - market wise - as off-road/heavy-duty tourers.

The brand and geometry are like an old glove: patina, memories and great fit. While I agree that there's no shortage of frame builders out there (if you're a part of frameforum you'll know that there's a huge resurgence of small builders), there is a shortage of credible brands.
i don't know much about merlin but from reading their geo chart it's very different from fat chance.
i don't doubt you can reproduce a lot of things but what's the point? don't we already have independent fabrications ? they WERE Fat chance. they are more legit when it comes to a Fat second coming than anyone else.
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Old March 24th, 2007, 10:29 AM   #11
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i don't know much about merlin but from reading their geo chart it's very different from fat chance.
i don't doubt you can reproduce a lot of things but what's the point? don't we already have independent fabrications ? they WERE Fat chance. they are more legit when it comes to a Fat second coming than anyone else.
IF is a custom shop, Fat produced stock bikes. I have an IF too and it's nice, but, if anything, I think the IF brand represents wealthy customers who want the best. I mean, they call their top bikes the XS and get written up about in Forbes. Fat Chance represents something a little different; more of a bros don't let their bros ride off-shore sameness and an article in Dirtrag. It's always seemed to me - and again, I might be talking out of my a$$ here - that IF was built on the Fat customer base, which puts the IF brand lower on the pyramid than that of Fat Chance.

The point - and I think you probably already know this - is that there's money to made. Look at a company like Texas Pacific Luxury Group. They bought Ducati and Vespa and were able to trade on the cache of the name - the ooh factor - and took those brands (in North America at least) from esoteric Euro-snobbery to "a dealer in every major market" accessibility and massive sales increases.

Oh - and older Merlins - that's what I was was talking about - were titanium Fats and the early 90's bikes - as I understand it - followed the Fat geometry evolution. Gary Helfrich is the link. Let me know if I'm wrong about that.
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Old March 24th, 2007, 2:42 PM   #12
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I think you're being too hard on IF. When you consider the increased cost of materials and what it takes to be not only financially successful, but also viable in today's mass production/inhouse spec bike industry, they do what they have to do to be around for the long haul. Sure they could lower their prices so that every college student out there can get their hands on one, but they aren't going to be able to afford the high quality welders for very long. Then in no time, they'll be forced to sell to a larger parent company or move their fabrication overseas. A few years later, we'll be chatting on an IF board about how great it is to own an original frame before the "Saratoga" years...

I don't think your analogy with Texas Pacific Luxury Group fits in here. Maybe if you were discussing Schwinn, but IF isn't a large corporate model using the brand name to get the business. IF is quality. I don't see anything wrong with IF being "built on the Fat customer base". Some chose to jump ship when the writing was on the wall. Discerning owners saw this as a chance to continue to get what they want from those who knew how to build it. Those who stayed with Fat Chance apparently felt it was ok that Fats were no longer being built by Fat. Besides, why reinvent the wheel when you already know what people want. From what I remember, it's not like there were 4" travel forks out there on hardtails justifying a different geometry.

I get a little tired of hearing about people saying they're "core" for the sake of being "core". It's like the new grunge. I really could give a rats arse what anyone thinks of me as a rider/owner. I happen to own Fats, IFs, and a Merlin (ranging from '89-'06), along with an assortment of more modern FS rigs and road bikes. Why bring this up? Because in the end, I'm in love with bicycles. Granted, part of the reason I love my old frames is because they're, well, old and come with an interesting history. It makes for great trailside conversation. But it doesn't make me love the newer ones any less. Each one has it's merits and weaknesses. Admittedly, some of that is how I have them built up.

This is only my opinion. I certainly don't mean to come across hostile, so please don't take it that way.

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Originally Posted by mainlyfats View Post
IF is a custom shop, Fat produced stock bikes. I have an IF too and it's nice, but, if anything, I think the IF brand represents wealthy customers who want the best. I mean, they call their top bikes the XS and get written up about in Forbes. Fat Chance represents something a little different; more of a bros don't let their bros ride off-shore sameness and an article in Dirtrag. It's always seemed to me - and again, I might be talking out of my a$$ here - that IF was built on the Fat customer base, which puts the IF brand lower on the pyramid than that of Fat Chance.

The point - and I think you probably already know this - is that there's money to made. Look at a company like Texas Pacific Luxury Group. They bought Ducati and Vespa and were able to trade on the cache of the name - the ooh factor - and took those brands (in North America at least) from esoteric Euro-snobbery to "a dealer in every major market" accessibility and massive sales increases.

Oh - and older Merlins - that's what I was was talking about - were titanium Fats and the early 90's bikes - as I understand it - followed the Fat geometry evolution. Gary Helfrich is the link. Let me know if I'm wrong about that.
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Old March 24th, 2007, 4:11 PM   #13
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Default Good Post UpChuck

wise words indeed.

IF maybe Custom now, but it's only been that way for the past year or so for steel. I too detest 'inverse snobbery'. What has a couple of write-ups in a glossy mag got to do with diluting a brand? Why does it make it more 'down with the kid's if the product's made half way up a mountain by a bearded trogladite?
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Old March 24th, 2007, 7:53 PM   #14
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I like this thread. The posts are well-thought out and pose good arguments on both sides. All opinions are welcome, and I think its great Colker didn't like his Yo. He's a rider with a style anyone else, and I think its great he posts about it. I have never ridden a Fat, mine are still in the resto process, so I realize my comments aren't worth as much.

But from the sideline, it seems if there was a resurgence of FCC, then all the existing frames would lose their appeal. FCC had an attitude. I grew up and raced on the east coast US and I know all about it. When I moved west, we banded together and called ourselves "east coast hardcore," and cherished our steep head angles, even though they were worthless here in the land of fast, buffed singletrack. FCC was all about the attitude. The original fat cogs were tattoed, rigid, and stoned. I dont think you could replicate that, and IMHO, using the Fat name to sell frames that arent Fats would just be, well, wrong.

Again, thats just my $.02
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Old March 24th, 2007, 8:19 PM   #15
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I think you're being too hard on IF. When you consider the increased cost of materials and what it takes to be not only financially successful, but also viable in today's mass production/inhouse spec bike industry, they do what they have to do to be around for the long haul. Sure they could lower their prices so that every college student out there can get their hands on one, but they aren't going to be able to afford the high quality welders for very long. Then in no time, they'll be forced to sell to a larger parent company or move their fabrication overseas. A few years later, we'll be chatting on an IF board about how great it is to own an original frame before the "Saratoga" years...

I don't think your analogy with Texas Pacific Luxury Group fits in here. Maybe if you were discussing Schwinn, but IF isn't a large corporate model using the brand name to get the business. IF is quality. I don't see anything wrong with IF being "built on the Fat customer base". Some chose to jump ship when the writing was on the wall. Discerning owners saw this as a chance to continue to get what they want from those who knew how to build it. Those who stayed with Fat Chance apparently felt it was ok that Fats were no longer being built by Fat. Besides, why reinvent the wheel when you already know what people want. From what I remember, it's not like there were 4" travel forks out there on hardtails justifying a different geometry.

I get a little tired of hearing about people saying they're "core" for the sake of being "core". It's like the new grunge. I really could give a rats arse what anyone thinks of me as a rider/owner. I happen to own Fats, IFs, and a Merlin (ranging from '89-'06), along with an assortment of more modern FS rigs and road bikes. Why bring this up? Because in the end, I'm in love with bicycles. Granted, part of the reason I love my old frames is because they're, well, old and come with an interesting history. It makes for great trailside conversation. But it doesn't make me love the newer ones any less. Each one has it's merits and weaknesses. Admittedly, some of that is how I have them built up.

This is only my opinion. I certainly don't mean to come across hostile, so please don't take it that way.
AMEN! well put Upchuck....I love my Fats, but my custom IF honestly does fit me better and is my bike of choice when its going to be a fast,hard ride. They are both great bikes though, and im very happy to experience the ownership of both brands.

Last edited by DonH; March 24th, 2007 at 8:23 PM. Reason: edit
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Old March 24th, 2007, 9:29 PM   #16
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Default I'm making a point about brand perception...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Upchuck View Post
I think you're being too hard on IF. When you consider the increased cost of materials and what it takes to be not only financially successful, but also viable in today's mass production/inhouse spec bike industry, they do what they have to do to be around for the long haul. Sure they could lower their prices so that every college student out there can get their hands on one, but they aren't going to be able to afford the high quality welders for very long. Then in no time, they'll be forced to sell to a larger parent company or move their fabrication overseas. A few years later, we'll be chatting on an IF board about how great it is to own an original frame before the "Saratoga" years...

I don't think your analogy with Texas Pacific Luxury Group fits in here. Maybe if you were discussing Schwinn, but IF isn't a large corporate model using the brand name to get the business. IF is quality. I don't see anything wrong with IF being "built on the Fat customer base". Some chose to jump ship when the writing was on the wall. Discerning owners saw this as a chance to continue to get what they want from those who knew how to build it. Those who stayed with Fat Chance apparently felt it was ok that Fats were no longer being built by Fat. Besides, why reinvent the wheel when you already know what people want. From what I remember, it's not like there were 4" travel forks out there on hardtails justifying a different geometry.

I get a little tired of hearing about people saying they're "core" for the sake of being "core". It's like the new grunge. I really could give a rats arse what anyone thinks of me as a rider/owner. I happen to own Fats, IFs, and a Merlin (ranging from '89-'06), along with an assortment of more modern FS rigs and road bikes. Why bring this up? Because in the end, I'm in love with bicycles. Granted, part of the reason I love my old frames is because they're, well, old and come with an interesting history. It makes for great trailside conversation. But it doesn't make me love the newer ones any less. Each one has it's merits and weaknesses. Admittedly, some of that is how I have them built up.

This is only my opinion. I certainly don't mean to come across hostile, so please don't take it that way.
... not how the companies are actually run, or what they actually do. This, to me, is all about the shallowness of how they appear. A brand is something you buy into, rather than just buy. Just to be clear, I don't want to see anything happen here. I'm just musing a bit on the power of the brand in what is, let's face it, the new market we prop up: Vintage Mountain Bikes.

I certainly don't fault IF for any of the decisions they've made marketing-wise, I respect that their doors are still open and they continue to do cutting edge work. I was referring to my perception what their brand means. Again, I too am a proud IF owner. But, let's face it, show me a dozen IF owners without college degrees and I'll be shocked. These are stockbroker rides, not bro rides and the only reason I bought one is because of the FCC connection. The only reason I keep it is that it kicks a$$. There are lots of lucky stockbrokers out there!

The TPLG bit was about them buying and pulling a Vespa/Ducati on the Fat Chance brand. It had nothing to do with IF. I hate what TPLG has done to Vespa, I hope they keep their stinking urban-hipster hands a million miles from anything as dear to me as IF.

I'm enjoying this thread too ameybrook! I know it's a standard-issue disclaimer, but it's always made me ponder, who, exactly, would give a sh!t what we do or say on this board. The answer in my mind is anyone with a vested interest in the future of the brand.

Last edited by mainlyfats; March 24th, 2007 at 10:01 PM. Reason: I have a six week old.
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Old March 24th, 2007, 9:43 PM   #17
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First, I am known as jerk on most forums I participate on. That said I do not believe I have done anything to anyone here - yet. Maybe he knows me from another forum!

Second, I love my Yo. It is being restored as I type this. I will post pics when it comes back from the painter - supposedly Monday! Anyone got any purple anodized parts they need to get rid of?

Third, custom is pretty great. My second bike is a custom steel built around Yo geometry but suspension corrected and the seattube a degree steeper for my bad knees. It is fillet brazed not welded which I wanted. Also, it is nice to know the builder is choosing tubing for my weight, riding style, local conditions, etc. I also got some artistic touches by the builder. It is hard to go wrong with custom if you choose a reputable builder.

I would have bought a non-custom but good steel frames are expensive no matter how you slice it. Custom seemed like a good deal for the money actually. I made my final decision based on being comfortable with the builder. I ride my bike all the time and I think I made a good decision. I also think any of you who like steel hardtails would agree it is a pretty nice bike.

Fourth, carbon bikes are pretty nice. I know whoever said it was joking, but a carbon bike with Yo geometry would be a good bike. As to ride characteristics, I find correct fork settings and the right headtube angle covers the front end feeling pretty good. As for the BB and rear end hardtails can be tricky. That said I do not see any reason a carbon frame could not be made to ride very nicely and weigh 600 grams less than a steel bike. Builders are always working on new stuff and one will make it happen.

And fifth, I agree that this is a good thread.

That is all I have to say for now.
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Old March 24th, 2007, 11:52 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally Posted by colker View Post
i totally disagree on either the custom and the carbon. a fat chance or ibis or any other quality frame is a known quantity: you get what you know. a custom can be good and can be not. anyone telling you a custom is above everything else cause it's unique doesn't know bikes. a fat chance has a geometry which was researched and perfected. i have a custom and i have a fat. unless i have a weird body proportion my fit is pretty much covered by fat chance or ritchey or ibis specs.
as for carbon.. yeah right. if you equal weight and quality, sure but ALL discerning riders i meet KNOW what matters is ride quality, handling, balance.
btw.. aren't you the one who finds your yo eddy a bad bike? so why do you keep posting these things here?
It was Headtube.
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Old March 25th, 2007, 4:42 AM   #19
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... not how the companies are actually run, or what they actually do. This, to me, is all about the shallowness of how they appear. A brand is something you buy into, rather than just buy. Just to be clear, I don't want to see anything happen here. I'm just musing a bit on the power of the brand in what is, let's face it, the new market we prop up: Vintage Mountain Bikes.

I certainly don't fault IF for any of the decisions they've made marketing-wise, I respect that their doors are still open and they continue to do cutting edge work. I was referring to my perception what their brand means. Again, I too am a proud IF owner. But, let's face it, show me a dozen IF owners without college degrees and I'll be shocked. These are stockbroker rides, not bro rides and the only reason I bought one is because of the FCC connection. The only reason I keep it is that it kicks a$$. There are lots of lucky stockbrokers out there!

The TPLG bit was about them buying and pulling a Vespa/Ducati on the Fat Chance brand. It had nothing to do with IF. I hate what TPLG has done to Vespa, I hope they keep their stinking urban-hipster hands a million miles from anything as dear to me as IF.

I'm enjoying this thread too ameybrook! I know it's a standard-issue disclaimer, but it's always made me ponder, who, exactly, would give a sh!t what we do or say on this board. The answer in my mind is anyone with a vested interest in the future of the brand.

I don't have a degree nor am I a stockbroker, however I have 3 If's and a FAT, the IF's came about directly because of FCC. Yes... IF's are at the upper echelons of the price scale for a hardtail, but maybe this is why they remain in business whilst FCC folded?
Maybe the 'better educated' (for want of a better term) have more disposable income, but also maybe they are more immune to marketing BS? ......5 inch 'all-mountain' anyone???WTF????
On the other hand maybe they've found a niche(steel hardtails) to climb aboard and sneer down at the couch(FS) bike owners? who knows...... we all have our reasons, agendas etc....
(maybe that's a big leap and a sweeping genralis(z)ation).... still it would be interesting to see the demographics of IF purchasers though......

I too would hate to see the FCC name resurrected in the name of making a buck. I guess everyone here on this forum has bought into the idea of FCC (or whatever it means to them), and wouldn't want anything to somehow cheapen that view......

Let sleeping dogs lie....(maybe???)

Andy
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Old March 25th, 2007, 9:48 AM   #20
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Default Hey Andy

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Originally Posted by corky View Post
I don't have a degree nor am I a stockbroker, however I have 3 If's and a FAT, the IF's came about directly because of FCC. Yes... IF's are at the upper echelons of the price scale for a hardtail, but maybe this is why they remain in business whilst FCC folded?
Maybe the 'better educated' (for want of a better term) have more disposable income, but also maybe they are more immune to marketing BS?
My equation of IF ownership with post-secondary education was ENTITRELY financial ie: higher chance of the income necessary to afford one given a degree. You might be dead on regarding the immunity of the well-heeled.

I'm painting with a pretty broad brush here and I hope that's understood. I also hope people get that this the electronic version of shooting the sh!t over beers for me. My opinions aren't set in stone and by the next round may have done a 180 on me.
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Old March 25th, 2007, 10:38 AM   #21
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Default Hi Mainly

yeah I guess we're both dealing in sweeping generalisations.... still a healthy (and interesting) debate eh?

just come back from a spin in the spring sunshine here.... I know why I love my Yo
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Old March 26th, 2007, 11:34 PM   #22
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Default little change here - it remains

Beautiful discussion and most have said their peace very nicely. What it comes down to for me and most others is ride although the cool factor is in there and does have an impact. But do any of you really want to hang out with let alone ride with someone who bought a bike solely for the cool factor? I doubt it. Back in the day most of those types of people were buying Kleins or Cannondales if they couldnt afford the former.

Anyway I own a wicked and have had three. I also own an IF deluxe. When it came time to have a custom single speed made I took my wicked frame to my local builder and said, "can you make me a cool, lugged single speed just like this"? So he made me a columbus max tubing ss with eccentric BB. Yep it rides just like my Wicked but much less forgiving. It kicks my ass when Im tired or out of shape but also accelerates and goes where I point it much faster than the wicked. Tight twisty single track is all I want.

If I want to go out and jump, ride some wide open rutted fire roads and play around without paying too much attention to speed and precision then I ride my IF Deluxe.

I dont think there is much money in resurrecting the brand but there probably is opportunity in spec'ing a high end steel hardtail in Taiwan and building a new brand around it.

My two cents and we should probably all just shup and ride.


Quote:
Originally Posted by corky View Post
yeah I guess we're both dealing in sweeping generalisations.... still a healthy (and interesting) debate eh?

just come back from a spin in the spring sunshine here.... I know why I love my Yo
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Old March 27th, 2007, 1:55 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by ameybrook View Post
I like this thread. The posts are well-thought out and pose good arguments on both sides. All opinions are welcome, and I think its great Colker didn't like his Yo. He's a rider with a style anyone else, and I think its great he posts about it. I have never ridden a Fat, mine are still in the resto process, so I realize my comments aren't worth as much.

But from the sideline, it seems if there was a resurgence of FCC, then all the existing frames would lose their appeal. FCC had an attitude. I grew up and raced on the east coast US and I know all about it. When I moved west, we banded together and called ourselves "east coast hardcore," and cherished our steep head angles, even though they were worthless here in the land of fast, buffed singletrack. FCC was all about the attitude. The original fat cogs were tattoed, rigid, and stoned. I dont think you could replicate that, and IMHO, using the Fat name to sell frames that arent Fats would just be, well, wrong.

Again, thats just my $.02
AAAAHH! i love my wicked and want a yo! i am not the one who did not like it!! LOL..
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Old March 27th, 2007, 2:01 PM   #24
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First, I am known as jerk on most forums I participate on. That said I do not believe I have done anything to anyone here - yet. Maybe he knows me from another forum!

Second, I love my Yo. It is being restored as I type this. I will post pics when it comes back from the painter - supposedly Monday! Anyone got any purple anodized parts they need to get rid of?

Third, custom is pretty great. My second bike is a custom steel built around Yo geometry but suspension corrected and the seattube a degree steeper for my bad knees. It is fillet brazed not welded which I wanted. Also, it is nice to know the builder is choosing tubing for my weight, riding style, local conditions, etc. I also got some artistic touches by the builder. It is hard to go wrong with custom if you choose a reputable builder.

I would have bought a non-custom but good steel frames are expensive no matter how you slice it. Custom seemed like a good deal for the money actually. I made my final decision based on being comfortable with the builder. I ride my bike all the time and I think I made a good decision. I also think any of you who like steel hardtails would agree it is a pretty nice bike.

Fourth, carbon bikes are pretty nice. I know whoever said it was joking, but a carbon bike with Yo geometry would be a good bike. As to ride characteristics, I find correct fork settings and the right headtube angle covers the front end feeling pretty good. As for the BB and rear end hardtails can be tricky. That said I do not see any reason a carbon frame could not be made to ride very nicely and weigh 600 grams less than a steel bike. Builders are always working on new stuff and one will make it happen.

And fifth, I agree that this is a good thread.


That is all I have to say for now.
sorry. i was the one here who acted like a jerk. i had no right to be aggressive and just had the wrong perspective on your post. sorry again.
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Old March 28th, 2007, 8:56 AM   #25
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Hi All

This topic has been discussed at length before. The moral high ground of another company using someone elses previous brand name. In this instance FAT chance.

Maybe its just my viewpoint, but if I saw another company using the FAT chance name I'd assume it was for financial reasons IE. responding to a uncatered niche in the market place & not for the love of a cherished bygone brand. imitation NOT being the sincerest form of flattery in this case. I thought this for some time...

... However since jeff@ firstflight restarted mountain goat its got me thinking. again this is just my viewpoint:
1, Any recreation of a brand should have the full blessing of the original owners. I dont care if all the patents & brand logos under the sun have expired; its totally bad form to take somebody elses lifes work & call it your own (espically for a FAsT buck; pun intended)
2, The quality should be representative of previous work. fairly certain that the new mountain goats are built by sycip as a good example. seeing a 2009 budget tiawanese steel "Yo! eddy" would literally be a crying shame.
3, any new models should be totally inkeeping with previous company brand recognition. IE I wouldnt want to see breezer dropouts or yeti curved stays on a 2009 yo eddy. sure single speeds, dirt jump frames, 29ers etc, etc would have been probable later FAT models have FAT stayed open, but dont make the brand unrecogniseable from its origins.

I massively appreciate how utterly biased I am towards FAT & for that I can only apologise. My reasons are purely selfish, I appreciate theres a LOT of love still out there for FAT & I, like several others I dont want to see "cheap, poor quality knock-offs".

as a side note I've never taken employment or wages as a view to level of bike ownership. luckily bikes are relatively cheap (compared to cars, etc) & when I see anyone with a expensive bike I just assume they like bikes
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Old March 28th, 2007, 4:13 PM   #26
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I just want to clarify a few things for any potential newbies.

1. An IF is not a fat. Especially not a recently built IF. No one who currently works at IF ever worked at fat chance (to the best of my knowledge) a couple of the machines may have seen service at FCC.

2. You could theoretically have a custom bike built to FCC specs and it would be close but not exactly the same. I highly doubt there is any of the original TT tubing left over. Also you would have to find someone willing to spin the stay ends, find the right dropouts etc.

3. Following along from pt. 2 it was the little things about fats that made them appealing to me. It was the untapered stays and awesome tire clearance, the domed stay ends and rock solid dropouts, the toothpick, the short headtubes, the unique colors, etc etc etc.

To me those little extras were what made the frames so desirable. It was those extra steps they took to differentiate themselves in a unique and cool way. Like others have said however it was definitely a product of its time. Today it would be considered way too low tech for the price that all that labor requires. Apparently mountain bikers today want high tech whiz bang never feel a trail irregularity carbon wunderbikes.... which begs the question, Why not just ride on the road? >
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Old March 29th, 2007, 11:27 AM   #27
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lucifer, things may have changed in 2yrs, but last time I spoke to Joe Ingram @ IF he told me that the FAT chance painter was still working there.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 1:37 PM   #28
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maybe all the Fat guys left Lucifer.. but IF proudly displays the fact they are the descendants of FCC.
otoh i agree those IF stays couldn't be more different than Fat and there is a fat chance anyone could reproduce them today.
the official story says chance left the building alone for saratoga while the crew kept welding bikes under the IF name. the first IFs were almost exact copies of yo eddies.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 3:46 PM   #29
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Quote:
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lucifer, things may have changed in 2yrs, but last time I spoke to Joe Ingram @ IF he told me that the FAT chance painter was still working there.

Think That's Lloyd Graves..... and yes I think he was at FCC.
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Old March 29th, 2007, 3:50 PM   #30
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maybe all the Fat guys left Lucifer.. but IF proudly displays the fact they are the descendants of FCC.
otoh i agree those IF stays couldn't be more different than Fat and there is a fat chance anyone could reproduce them today.
the official story says chance left the building alone for saratoga while the crew kept welding bikes under the IF name. the first IFs were almost exact copies of yo eddies.
They were basically Yo Eddy's but with slimmer top tubes and seat stays..... to give a commfier ride, apparently that was what the FCC staff used to have when they built frames for themselves. The pizootie flange/gusset and toothpick were dropped as well. After a while the TT tubing was dropped in favour of reynolds, if I recall correctly. If's are still a wonderful ride IME.....
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Old March 30th, 2007, 1:09 PM   #31
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Thanks for the update. I wasn't dissing IFs in any way. Hell I own one... but it's a roadie.
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Old March 30th, 2007, 1:43 PM   #32
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Default Dropped gusset?

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Originally Posted by corky View Post
They were basically Yo Eddy's but with slimmer top tubes and seat stays..... to give a commfier ride, apparently that was what the FCC staff used to have when they built frames for themselves. The pizootie flange/gusset and toothpick were dropped as well. After a while the TT tubing was dropped in favour of reynolds, if I recall correctly. If's are still a wonderful ride IME.....
Hmmmm... My FC Team and IF Deluxe SS both have down tube gussets. Are those what you're talking about?

O.K. I'm going to take one more kick at this can and see if I get things going in a different direction. I'm not now, nor have I ever really been, talking about the actual differences between the bikes (love them both) or the differences between the companies. They are completely different in every way to me (except of course for Lloyd Graves!) and almost don't bear comparison. As I said before: apples and oranges.

What I'm trying to get my head around is the perception of the Fat City Cycles brand, the value that brand may have in today's marketplace and who, if anyone, would be interested in taking a stab at drawing blood from the FCC stone.

There are what? 600 of us (120 or so "regular" contributors) and no doubt many more who lurk but don't post. Many of us, regardless of our income or level of education, put a huge heaping whack of our disposable income into bikes and (except for Yo Eddy! and his Miyata issue) a big chunk goes to Fat stuff or to companies in the Fat family tree.

What's it worth? Rody's making stickers. Someone else is making hoodies and t's on Cafe Press. Original BOI's are a grand, so Waltworks, Inglehart and others are making repros for $300-ish. Yos are now going for almost as much as they cost new if they're in good shape. How long before someone clues in that there's gold in them thar hills and that it can be tapped and - perhaps more importantly legally protected - if you OWN THE BRAND?
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Old March 30th, 2007, 5:18 PM   #33
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The 'dropped' gusset was the one between the seat stays and seat tube junction not the down-tube.... think it was called a pizootie or something.....just for clarification
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Old April 2nd, 2007, 5:52 PM   #34
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Hey guys, great topic. While I'm FATless now, and riding only road, it's good to see this bantered about.


Here's my feelings, in no particular order...


Fat was never "a bike of the people." Sure, it had a strong, cult following, but my Yo Eddy frame in 1993 was over $1100. That's not really accessible by a lot of enthusiasts, unless they have a lot of disposable income and are kind of soft in the head. It was elitist and snobbish before elitism and snobism was en vogue.

I don't ever want to see the Fat City brand come back, unless it was Chris Chance wielding the torch. That's the only way I would buy one, or even be happy to see them in production again. Brands born out of ashes rarely can live up to the original mystique. Ok, Swobo was cool then and cool now, but it's an anomoly. I think the resurrection of Mountain Got is cool, too, but to me, it took a lot of the buzz away from the original coveted bikes. I don't want to see that aura dulled for Fat Chance bikes, too.

In the mid 80s, Tamiya released a plethora of neat little R/C vehicles, and they are forever ingrained into the hearts of people my age. In the last year, Tamiya re-released these kits in identical formats, not only killing the collector market for old cars and parts, but really putting a haze over the memories you had of how cool those little cars were. Twenty years later, we look at them now and realize how crappy they really were, or how far off of technology they are now.




I think we all have the same appreciation for the finer things in life, and that's one of the reasons why we were drawn to Fat. The company is gone, and what they did in their lifespan was strong enough to still have a following of fans like this 10 years later. But I don't want to see the name soiled by anyone trying to capitalize on the history and name. Unless CC decides to have another crack at it, it makes a mess of everything we know Fat Chance bikes to be.




R.I.P. Fat City Cycles.





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Old April 7th, 2007, 6:49 PM   #35
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A few Fat refugees still remain at Fat the general attitude is still quite similar at the IF shop. IF still does lots of grassroots support for racers just as Fat did. IF has the same rabid fans who pay big money for old clothing just like Fat fans.

High end hard tail sales are growing and have never slowed at IF. The 29ers are becoming the next big boom here in NE along with SS for racing and hard core riding.
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